Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement?

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Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 13:47:44 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 13:47:44 GMT -6

The RCAF is looking to replace the CH-146 Griffon (UH-1Y Venom) in the near future. The Griffon was introduced into active service in Canada in 1992 and in 2012 the government announced that the aircraft would be retired in 2021 with a possible extension to 2025 if no replacement was found or late delivery of replacement aircraft. Many people ask why replace the aircraft after just 29 years, why not mod them for upgrades? The Griffon has already gone through several mod upgrades; analog cockpit upgraded to hybrid CRT/ analog displays, CRT displays upgraded to LCD and analog dials removed, 7.62 mm C6 GPMG mounted on both doors upgraded to 7.62 mm Dillon Aero M134D "Minigun" mounted on both doors, and Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6T-3D turboshaft engine, 750 shp upgraded to 900 shp. With all these upgrades that have already taken place, there is no more possible upgrades without completely rebuilding the helicopter.

In 2008 the Department of Defence (DND) stated... "The Griffon helicopter has become almost a laughing stock. It is underpowered for the transport role the army needs it to play, and it’s too big for a reconnaissance role. At a time when the Canadian Forces are thirsting for equipment, it’s telling that about 20 of the Griffons have been parked, because they can not keep up with the competition. Its engines are fine for most domestic requirements in Canada and a more moderate temperature, but [the Griffon] doesn't really have the horsepower to reach its full potential in a place like Afghanistan or in any other southern conflict close the equator."

Since then the Griffon has received engine upgrades, but still does not match the power of the Sikorsky, AgustaWestland, or Eurocopter variants. The one big thing that the Griffon has going for it, is it's speed! The Griffon is very fast for a helicopter built on 1952 design. The Griffon is actually faster and more maneuverable than the UH-60 Blackhawk.

The RCAF is currently looking at these aircraft as future replacements for the CH-146:


AgustaWestland AW139: -Crew: 2 - 4 -Capacity: 15 maximum -Gross Weight: 6,400 kg (14,110 lb) fully loaded -Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6C-67C turboshaft engine, 1,142 kW (1,531 hp) each -Speed: Maximum speed: 310 km/h (193 mph) -Range: Combat radius: 530 km (269 miles), Ferry range: 1,061 km (573 miles) without addition internal or external fuel, no ESSS functionality available currently	AgustaWestland AW149: -Crew: 2 - 4 -Capacity: 18 max, 12 combat laden troops or; 2,720kg external sling load -Gross Weight: 8,600 kg (18,959 lb) fully loaded -Powerplant: 2 × General Electric CT7-2E1 turboshaft engine, 1,477 kW (1,980 hp) each -Speed: cruising speed 278 km/h (173 mph) -Range: Combat radius: 370 km (230 miles), Ferry range: 740 km (460 miles) without addition internal or external fuel or 1,480 km (920 miles) with ESSS Wings	Sikorsky MH-60M: (Canadian designation CH-160M Can Hawk) -Crew: 4 -Capacity: 2,640 lb (1,200 kg) of cargo internally, including 11 troops or 6 stretchers, or 8,000 lb (3,600 kg) (UH-60A) or 9,000 lb (4,100 kg) (UH-60L) of cargo externally -Gross Weight: empty 10,624 lb (4,819 kg), loaded 22,000 lb (9,980 kg), max takeoff weight 23,500 lb (10,660 kg) -Powerplant: 2 × General Electric T700-GE-701C turboshaft, 1,890 hp (1,410 kW) each -Speed: Never exceed speed: 193 knots (222 mph, 357 km/h), Maximum speed: 159 kn (183 mph, 295 km/h), Cruise speed: 150 kn (173 mph, 278 km/h) -Range: Combat radius: 368 mi (320 nmi, 592 km), Ferry range: 736 km (640 nmi, 1,184 km) without addition internal or external fuel, or 1,380 mi (1,200 nmi, 2,220 km) with ESSS stub wings and external tanks	Eurocopter EC645: (Eurocopter was not approached by the RCAF but rather Eurocopter approached the RCAF with their variant.) -Crew: 2 -Capacity: 8 troops or 2 stretchers and medical crew -Gross Weight: Empty weight: 3,950 lb (1,792 kg), Useful load: 3,953 lb (1,793 kg), Max. takeoff weight: 7,903 lb (3,585 kg) -Powerplant: 2 × Turbomeca Arriel 1E2 turboshafts, 738 shp (551 kW) each -Speed: Maximum speed: 145 knots (167 mph, 269 km/h), Cruise speed: 133 knots (153 mph, 246 km/h) -Range: 370 nmi (426 mi, 685 km)

CH-146 Compare Tech Specs:

-Crew: 3 - 4
-Capacity: 10 troops or 6 stretchers (some sources state maximum 8 passengers in hybrid configuration)
-Gross Weight: Max. takeoff weight: 5,355 kg (11,900 lb)
-Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6T-3D turboshaft engine, 900 shp (671 kW) each
-Speed: Never exceed speed: 210 knots (242 mph, 390 km/h), Maximum speed: 260 km/h (139 knots, 160 mph), Cruise speed: 220 km/h (118 knots, 136 mph)
-Range: Combat Radius: 656 km (354 nm, 405 mi), Ferry Range: 1,311 km (708 nmi, 815 mi) without addition internal or external fuel

One thing that should be mentioned is that all RCAF rotary pilots are currently checked out on the CH-146 Griffon (UH-1Y Venom), CH-147 Chinook, CH-149 Cormorant (AW101 Merlin), and now the CH-148 Cyclone (H-92 Superhawk). Those are the rotary aircraft in the Canadian Forces. Although many RCAF rotary pilots are trained on the UH-60, due to joint NATO and exchange missions.

What aircraft do you think the RCAF should go with and why?

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2014 15:00:54 GMT -6 by Deleted

Deleted Deleted Member Posts: 0	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 18:22:56 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 18:22:56 GMT -6 Sikorsky mh60. Speed, 11combat troops transport capability. And tried and tested aircraft.

Eric [CzCn CAWG] CzCn Member Posts: 24	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 21:23:10 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Eric [CzCn CAWG] on Mar 5, 2014 21:23:10 GMT -6 MH-60M 100%

Deleted Deleted Member Posts: 0	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 22:15:04 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 22:15:04 GMT -6 While untested in my eyes, the AW149 looks interesting...But the Sikorsy is my vote for sure

Eric [CzCn CAWG] CzCn Member Posts: 24	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 22:17:08 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Eric [CzCn CAWG] on Mar 5, 2014 22:17:08 GMT -6 Nothing can take a beating like a Blackhawk can. Those birds just keep going and going.

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Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 5, 2014 22:45:36 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 22:45:36 GMT -6

I would say CH-160M (MH-60M) would be the best choice. But the AW149 would be interesting! Swear you touched on the best points though, but you should consider that the MH-60M would be pretty much a completely redesigned Blackhawk. They are putting brand new avionic systems, flight controls, etc into the new bird. They are even starting to incorporate carbon fiber composites! That is the material that is being used to build the Boeing 787 Deamliner, it is lighter than aluminum and stronger than steal! It will be interesting to see what that does to the Blackhawk, the specs that are listed here for the MH-60 are pretty much the L variant's. I guess what we would be going on is the linage of the Blackhawk, and to see what an entirely redesigned version would be like?

Carbon Fiber Composites are 5.3x stronger than Steal! That is far more stronger than aluminum, and Carbon Fiber Composites are lighter than aluminum!

Aircraft Carbon Fiber Composites (aircraft sheet panel 3.5mm thick):

Last Edit: Mar 5, 2014 23:36:47 GMT -6 by Deleted

Garrett Reeves [CAST] Administrator Captain Posts: 671	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 6, 2014 9:58:28 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Garrett Reeves [CAST] on Mar 6, 2014 9:58:28 GMT -6 Woo hoo go Blackhawk
	"I pursued my enemies and overtook them; I did not turn back till they were destroyed. I crushed them so that they could not rise; they fell beneath my feet. You armed me with strength for battle; you made my adversaries bow at my feet. You made my enemies turn their backs in flight, and I destroyed my foes."

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Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 6, 2014 13:08:34 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 13:08:34 GMT -6

I guess this means, when we all get into ArmA 3 once ACE is released for it, the RCAF would use the Ghosthawk? It is the Bohemia interpretation of a stealth Blackhawk in 2035, since ArmA 3 is set in 2035. By that time, from what we are all agreeing on Canada and the RCAF would have CH-160M's or maybe even a later model that will come after the M variant.

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Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 6, 2014 18:40:38 GMT -6

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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 18:40:38 GMT -6

This is really interesting! The UH-60A was far slower than the new UH-60M, infact the CH-146 compared to the UH-60A,B,C,D, and E variants was actually faster! It was the new engines in the L and M models that have made the new UH-60 much faster than the CH-146.

Deleted Deleted Member Posts: 0	Royal Canadian Air Force CH-146 Replacement? Mar 6, 2014 20:07:47 GMT -6 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 20:07:47 GMT -6 I've noticed shacktac (dyslexci) has transitioned to arma 3. Idk if they are running ACE though. Anyone know if it's available yet?